#86 - How to build an empowering mother-daughter relationship in the teen years with Sandra Stanley & Allie Cooney

Allie Cooney (00:00):

I don't think the comparison trap is new by any means, but I do think social media and smartphones have exacerbated the problem so much. I got my Instagram when I was a sophomore in high school. You see what everybody's doing and you see who's hanging out without you and you're seeing who gets into what college and who has a boyfriend. And on social media, I mean, people know this. You put out the best version of your life. And so the people on the other side of the phone are like, well, my life doesn't look like that. And so I think that really causes young girls to spiral. And I think that that's just painful. I mean, because you're never going to be the best at anything ever. There's always going to be someone smarter or prettier or more athletic or has cooler friends or can just create an aesthetic on the internet. So I think this social media generation, it is hard and there has to be boundaries and there has to be guidance. Yeah. So

Joey Odom (01:04):

Welcome back to the Aro podcast. Hey, it's your good friend, Joey Odom, co-founder of ro. Yes Ro that is available for you to try for free for the first time ever. If you've not downloaded the Aro app, go do it right now. I'll wait for you go download the Aro app now. It is free for you to experience for the first time ever. And just a quick little sneak peek. You're going to absolutely love it if you're struggling with screen time, this is your solution. And today, this episode is for somebody very specifically and for those of you who it's for it is going to knock your socks off. And for those of you who it may not be for somebody who it's for. So I'm going to make an ask on this episode very particularly is share this one. Share this one. If you have a friend or if you are in, you know, somebody who has a teenage daughter, share this episode and I bet you do.

(02:01):

If you know three people who have a teenage daughter, share it with three people because this is going to be so perfect for them. My daughter, Gianna, she started high school today and yeah, I've had a tier or two about that. And it's weird. I know I feel a little bit young to have two kids in high school, but I do. But Gianna started high school and this book, it's by Sandra Stanley and Allie Stanley Cooney. They've written a book called Meet Me in the Middle. And what it is, it is a book that has three sections. One of them is Sandra writing to moms. One of them is Allie writing to daughters, Allie, Sandra's daughter. And then in the middle you meet in the middle and you discuss them together and you do an activity together. It is for middle school and high school girls, and it's so spot on.

(02:48):

Read it, cover to cover, and it's just, you hear it again and again and again. It is a faith-based book. But for those of you who may not be interested in faith or you may not a person of faith, it still applies to you, I promise. It is something that you can ingest, you can read both of you. It's super approachable, as you can tell. I can't say enough about it. So this was a fun discussion. The introduction was a super fun one. I got some insider information from Sandra's son, Andrew, Andrew Stanley, who's a comedian and is hilarious. And he gave me some insider information that I weaved into there, and I think it kind of shocked them. They probably felt a little bit stocked, but this episode's fantastic. I'll say it for the 11th time, share it with somebody who needs to hear it because it will hit them right between the eyes in a very, very good way.

(03:36):

For now, here's what you got to do. Sit back, relax, and enjoy my wonderful conversation with Sandra Stanley and Allie Cooney gang. Today we welcome a duo with the same DNA, but a lot of differences. One is carefree and creative, and the other is structured and analytical. One is a Walker Stanley and the other is a Stanley Cooney. One is a yellow jacket who doesn't sting, and the other is a tiger who doesn't bite. They both share Andy, but one calls him dad while the other calls him hubby. One of them taught the entire town of Dublin, Georgia to swim. And the other blessed the world with the rescuing Princess Alley Home video Trilogy. One used to drop some jack on a huge American girl doll collection, and the other used to drop her brother Jack down the laundry shoot with her sister Alison. One of their pet peeves is her brothers playing sister Jenga with her hair and the others is when her homeschool students refuse to hold the dad gum paper when they write. One of them has never driven over a flock of ducklings while she learned to drive. And well, one of them has, despite their differences, they've come together on a masterpiece book for moms and daughters to share. So no matter where you are, come meet me in the middle to welcome to the Aro podcast. Our guests, mom and daughter, yellow jacket and tiger, Sandra Stanley and Allie Cooney. Ladies

Sandra Stanley (05:05):

Welcome. Oh my goodness. Wow. That was impressive. We were trying to be quiet at first, and so we're sort of laughing quietly to ourselves and then we just, I am shocked. How did you pull all those pieces together? Some of them are so obscure.

Joey Odom (05:20):

It's a very good question. Some of 'em are obscure, and I actually, if it's okay, and we never do this, this is the first for the Aro podcast. We do have a question from a listener who has submitted.

Joey Odom (05:31):

So this comes out of Atlanta. This is Andrew S. Andrew S asks, he asked Sandra, Sandra, how is Pierre doing?

Sandra Stanley (05:39):

Oh my goodness. Pierre is still in my basement and I am so mad about it. Can we explain to the, we didn't tell people who Pierre is.

Joey Odom (05:47):

Yeah. Explain to the listener who Pierre is.

Sandra Stanley (05:49):

Okay. Pierre is a creepy looking paper mache puppet that Andrew made when he was in first or second grade. And he's like a maestro. He's sitting on a block of wood that's kind of holding him up

Joey Odom (06:06):

And

Sandra Stanley (06:06):

He's got draped with this purple outfit. He's horrifying. And then he's got sticks on his arms so that you can move his arms around and he's got this handlebar mustache. It's just a really, it's a whole creepy, awful. It's a nightmare. So when Andrew, I keep texting pictures when I'm cleaning out the basement, can I get rid of Pierre? And Andrew is so offended every time I ask him if we can get rid of Pierre. So at his rehearsal dinner to years ago, I presented Pierre to Andrew and Anna that now they can keep Pierre in their home. And somehow Pierre got back in my basement. And it is the kind of thing that if you walk around the corner and you just kind of look, it scares you every terrify single time. Yeah. So that's fear.

Joey Odom (06:53):

Well, I guess

Allie Cooney (06:55):

He's an unwelcome part of our family. I know.

Joey Odom (06:58):

Oh my goodness. I did just give up my source. Andrew and I have been texting for the last few days. I wanted to keep you in the dark that I do know Andrew. So we have been texting the last few days and he fed me all of this information.

Allie Cooney (07:10):

Okay, good. The hair Jenga was a memory I had suppressed that I have now rediscovered. Thank you.

Joey Odom (07:19):

Well, what's funny, I asked him at the end of all of these, and I'm not going to name which one of you ran over ducklings when you were learning to drive Sandra, but Yep. I did ask him. I said, is this going to be triggering any of these things? I legitimately was nervous. And he said, no, but it's still not so sure.

Sandra Stanley (07:39):

Yeah, I feel okay. The running over the not okay. I was learning to drive and I was driving to South Carolina to my grandparents with my dad, and he had just been over the rule of, you never swerve for animals, you never swerve for animals a thousand times. My dad said, you never swerve for animals. And sure enough, we're just over the South Carolina line driving through the old Savannah River plant and this little family with a mother with five ducklings following her across the road. And I'm going 55 or so, and I wasn't allowed to swerve for animals. And the mom made it.

Joey Odom (08:21):

That's

Sandra Stanley (08:22):

The worst. I was sad about it.

Joey Odom (08:23):

That's the worst part.

Sandra Stanley (08:25):

That's the worst part. The mom, mom was fine. It was all the rest of Seattle.

Joey Odom (08:29):

Oh goodness.

Sandra Stanley (08:29):

So thanks for bringing it up, Joe.

Joey Odom (08:31):

Yeah, no, thank you. This is all, and I'm merely the messenger. I'm just the vessel here. This is all Andrew. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. I hope we're not triggered, too triggered for the interview, but I will tell you, I was telling you off air, this book Meet Me in the Middle is so perfect for, I mean, frankly, I mean this is going to be a very selfish episode, so perfect for where I am. My daughter started high school today, and Allie, you asked me if I played 15 by Taylor Swift, yet what it feels like is exactly that song. And so this book, and I'd love, I don't want to steal your thunder, it has a very unique format, has very unique content, and it really is to a specific audience. Will you talk a little bit about all of those things and maybe the story that led up to you all saying, Hey, let's do this together.

Sandra Stanley (09:21):

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll start with what it is and I'll let you kind of tell the story. So we decided to write this book. We feel like girls in their moms middle school age, high school age, they're just certain topics that have to be topics of conversation at some point. And so we thought, you know what? Let's arrange opportunities for moms to have these conversations with their daughters ahead of time while the temperature is low, the drama is low, go ahead and have these conversations. So I write eight chapters to the moms on eight topics. Allie writes a corresponding eight chapters to the girls in the second back of the book, and in the middle is a section called Meet Me in the Middle. And that's where they come together and there are some questions for them to discuss, some activities maybe to do to make it get less awkward and just fun. So our goal for the middle part is to be fun and to be a connection opportunity for moms and daughters

Allie Cooney (10:18):

And how it came about. We throughout college, we were invited to these random little mother-daughter cute events. And so when my daughter was about probably four months old, my mom brought the opportunity of like, would you want to write a resource for moms and daughters? And I was like, well, I do have a daughter now, so why not? But I have said before, it's been really sweet the moment that I had a little girl, I looked over at my mom and I'm like, you love me this much for the first time my life. I mean, I could grasp the depth in the heart that a mom has for a daughter, and all of a sudden I wanted to get it right so badly. She's six seconds old, but I'm like, how do we do this? How do I set her up for a life with little regret and being rooted and established and who God says she is and how do we do that? And so honestly, having a daughter really sparked this. I really want to make a resource for mothers and daughters to be able to get this season of their life.

Sandra Stanley (11:32):

Allie and I have both been in student ministry for years and years and years. So in addition to our own Mother-daughter journey, we've watched the mother-daughter relationship done really, really well and sometimes done really, really poorly not well. And so it just was motivating to us and drawing some of those experiences and then from our own journey made it a really fun thing to do together.

Joey Odom (12:00):

Sandra, I'm curious on that. You had two boys before Allie.

Sandra Stanley (12:04):

That's right. And

Joey Odom (12:07):

I'm sure the boys and the girls were just the exact same.

Sandra Stanley (12:10):

Exactly. No differences whatsoever. Will you

Joey Odom (12:14):

Tell us about that? That had to be a two by four to the face going through teenage years with a girl after two boys. So will you talk a little bit about the contrast between those about maybe how you saw the teenage boys, boys experienced teenage differently than Allie as a girl and maybe how that helped shape you for this book and equip you for this book?

Sandra Stanley (12:35):

Yeah, that's such a great question. Any parent who has more than one child knows that whether they're all girls, all boys, mixture of boys and girls, they are all so different anyway, just intrinsically. They're each their own little person with all kinds of different wirings and temperaments and personalities and all of that. So there's that. But the girl boy thing was certainly part of it. And as they got to those teenage years and the hormones start kicking in and all those kinds of things start happening, I noticed that with all three of mine, their reaction to all of that manifested very differently. So for Andrew, who was a typical firstborn, thoughtful thinker, a little bit quieter, a little more cautious, he just went to his room for about three years and I'm like, she's not kidding. Where's my child? Where did he go? He just got quiet. He went into himself. He just needed to work through some of it kind of in his own little heart and mind. So that was him. Andy even said to him one day, he said, Hey, Andrew, at least when you come in from school, if you could just make a noise in your mom's direction and so she knows that you at least see that she's in the room, that'd be awesome.

Joey Odom (13:56):

Gosh.

Sandra Stanley (13:58):

Like anything, anything. Just give her anything. She she'll take anything any more. So whatever. So for Andrew, he just droop in Garrett, our middle son. It manifested more in rage. He's more of an expressor and all of that kind of stuff. And there were times I would just say to Garrett, I could see it starting to boil. And I would say, Garrett, I want you to go up to your room and I want you to scream as loud as you can into your pillow three times as loud as you can into your pillow. Let's see if we can diffuse this a little bit before it gets on. Allie really was right.

Joey Odom (14:36):

Yes, exactly.

Sandra Stanley (14:37):

Spare, she was too, seemed to be the target sometimes,

Joey Odom (14:41):

Which is jump in, which is an expression of anxiety. Our mutual friend, sissy Goff talks about that, especially with boys. David talks about it with boys especially that rage is really just anxiety, just not knowing where to go. Right,

Sandra Stanley (14:56):

Yeah. And swirl that together with all the hormones and stuff. And

(15:00):

You have kind of a perfect storm. And then with Allie and having, I was a young girl going through what she was going through, so it was a little bit easier for me to relate to her as it was for Andy to relate to the boys. But for Allie, I prepared her ahead of time with a conversation and I said, you know what, Allie, not too long from now, you're going to start feeling weird feelings. You may start crying and you won't even know why you're crying. So just kind of be ready for that. It's normal. We'll get through. It. Kind of just had some preemptive conversations. I was very prepared. So when that happened, and that is kind of the way it manifested her, it was just some emotion, not depression, but just a sadness that she couldn't understand or getting set off very easily and starting to cry and all that kind of stuff.

(15:52):

And it sounds like it was all super dramatic every single day. It certainly wasn't. It was. But that was the way it manifested her. And so there was one day when she was really upset and I said, oh, Allie, come over here. Let's talk about this. What's wrong? She said, I don't know. I think this is that thing you told me about where I was just going to cry and not know why. So to answer your question, it really did look a little different for Allie. It was a little more emotional. I don't think that's always the case. It's probably almost always the case with girls and then with the boys. It was just different.

Joey Odom (16:23):

Allie, in this, you have such keen insight, as I told you both. I've covered a cover on the book, Ali, as your insight is so keen, and I know you've been involved in youth ministry and you've worked with girls of this age and having gone through it yourself, did you find, as you were riding it, did you find that you were kind of pulling from both experiences as you going through it, but then also seeing as a third party on the outside, seeing how other girls have gone through it, where did you find you were drawing from most? Or was it just this great blend of both experiences?

Allie Cooney (16:55):

Yeah, I definitely think it was both. So when I was in high school, I started leading a middle school small group, and that was very impactful on just my faith journey and everything in general. And then I started working as a career in student ministry and spending a lot of time with them. So I think the freshest, the topics that we picked were kind of from what I was experiencing with these other girls. But then as I was writing about them and getting into them, I would remember my own experience and the things that I wish that I could have heard or the conversations that I wish I could have had. So I think the first part, okay, we need to talk to these girls about identity and comparison and stress. This is what I'm seeing in all of them. And then as I was writing the process, it was like, oh yeah, I remember I, I also experienced all of these things. So I think it was a pretty good mix of the two.

Joey Odom (17:55):

Yeah. And you mentioned a few of those topics there. So you all go through, and Sandra, you said earlier you go through eight sections, eight sections of, Hey, here are eight things that girls are going to go through during this time of teenage years, and here's some ways to address it from both perspectives. I want to hit on a couple of them. One of them is one that you all are very well versed in talking about, which is the comparison trap, which Sander, you've done series on this, and I loved hearing it from specific to this age group. Will you talk, Allie, will you start and talk to us about what it's like during the teenage years? And then Sandra, you don't grow out of the comparison trash, right? You don't. So will you talk also of what that's segwaying into the adult years? So I'd love to hear it from what's it feel like for a upper middle school or high school girl going through the comparison trap and then Sandra the same from you?

Allie Cooney (18:52):

Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think the comparison trap is new by any means, but I do think social media and smartphones have just exacerbated the problem so much. I got my Instagram when I was a sophomore in high school, and you see what everybody's doing and you see who's hanging out without you and you're seeing who gets into what college and who has a boyfriend and who has a really fun looking group of friends. And on social media, I mean people know this. You put out the best version of your life. And so the people on the other side of the phone are like, well, my life doesn't look like that. And so I think that really causes young girls to spiral. But I think every aspect of your life, you could compare, you can compare your family. They have a great family. My family is not like that.

(19:47):

They have a great friend group. My friend group's not like that. And then the Looks department, they look like this. Their hair is like this, their makeup is like this. I don't know how to do that. I'm not measuring up in that way. Smarts, grades, I don't know about you, but I was definitely that girl that would get a grade and look over and try and see how I measured up on a specific test or a specific quiz just to see how I was doing. And that's how you create your own, how you think about yourself, your own identity. It's so easy to create it based on how other people are doing and how you're measuring up to other people. And I think that that's just painful. I mean, because you're never going to be the best at anything ever. There's always going to be someone smarter or prettier or more athletic or has cooler friends or can just create an aesthetic on the internet. So I think this social media generation, it, it's hard. And there has to be boundaries and there has to be guidance. And yeah,

Joey Odom (20:53):

It's funny as you say that Allie, and then you're a mom, and then Sandra, obviously you're mom, you imagine millions of teenage girls who were living in that right now. And it actually just hurt my heart hearing you say that and just imagining these little, just walking around in despair at times, so many of being this forced in their face. And that is, again, it's relatively new. We're 17 years into the iPhone. We're not demonizing phones by any means, but that is something, you're right, that it's, it magnifies it so much. Sandra, I'd love to hear from your perspective as you were talking about the comparison trap before smartphones, and here we are in a social media generation and it's magnified it so much. What is that transitioning out of adolescents, teenage years, college years into adulthood and then realizing all of a sudden like, wait, this thing's still around?

Sandra Stanley (21:47):

Yeah, it's so true. It is not something that we outgrow, but it is something where the categories sometimes change. So I think as you transition out of maybe some of the real insecurity of middle school and high school, you move to college and you think, okay, well now I kind of know who I am. I've found my rhythms of what I'm good at and all that kind of stuff. And then to your point, then you look around and go, oh, okay, but I'm still comparing. And then you move on to adulthood and parenting and grandparenting. There are new categories in every season where we tend to compare. So it just categorically changes. One of the things that Allie and I talk about is we want to give our girls at this young age two tools and really two ideas that can break them out of the comparison trap.

(22:46):

And then they are set up. I mean it going to be, it's never going away, but they have something to go back to when they get to the college years and find that the comparing is different. And then to getting married, looking for a husband and everybody else is getting married and I'm not and I'm single or getting married. And then you've just got every category. So the two things that we talk about in the chapter on comparison is here's what to do to break out of the comparison trap. You celebrate what God has given others and you leverage what God has given you, celebrate and leverage. And so one of the things we want moms and daughters to do together is to have conversations where moms are actually being honest about the ways they compare. Even now, not only do they remember what it was like when they were their daughter's age, but they're still struggling with it.

(23:37):

And for them to be able to just almost hold each other accountable or encourage each other to, Hey, how can we celebrate? So for the who, she's got a side kind of a little side job that she's trying to do at home while she's parenting or she's in the workforce and somebody else gets a promotion. But if she's home, somebody else's Instagram blows up and their business, their home business blows up. There's just always things. And so we want the moms and the daughters to say, Hey, what can we do? How can we celebrate that person? How can we celebrate mom's coworker? How can we celebrate the person in mom's, whatever circle of friends that just got this great opportunity or went on this extraordinary vacation that mom has been dreaming of since she was 16? Whatever it is, how can we celebrate? And so we just give some practical ideas.

(24:26):

When the daughter's friend makes cheerleading and she doesn't or makes the sports team and whatever it is, what can we do together to celebrate that person? We go to the grocery store together and buy a card and we go stick it in their mailbox and we do it together. Or mom does the same thing for her colleagues. So just finding those opportunities to celebrate where they actually, it's tangible. They're doing it together. They're brainstorming together on some really cool things they can do because the one thing that we have learned over and over and over is that celebrating other people's successes shrinks, jealousy and envy inside of us. It does it every single time and our heart catches up with our actions. And then the second one, you want to talk about leveraging.

Allie Cooney (25:10):

Yeah, leveraging what God has given you. When we compare, you either come up like, oh, I'm not measuring up. Or sometimes you come up on top and you're like, oh, I am smarter. I am better. I am doing good, which also is not. Some people are like, yeah, then you beat comparison. It's like, no comparison is still beating you. So on that side of things, leveraging what God has given you, because the truth is God has given us good things, he's given us gifts, he's given us talents. And so looking at those, appreciating those, but not using those to elevate yourself and push other people down, but actually using those to help bring people up. So I give the example in the book of, Hey, you did better than your friend on a test, instead of feeling better than, why don't next time you study together and you lend kind of what God's given you to help someone come up, instead of just being like, haha, I'm better. And I think that we can all do that in adulthood. We can always see what God's given us. And it's like the parable of the talents, honestly. It's like God's given you this. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to afford it and keep it to yourself and let it escalate your pride, or are you going to leverage it to help other people? So I think it's wherever you land in the comparison world, you can do something to do

Joey Odom (26:34):

Both things. What I love about that is, and why this is so necessary, this book is because this requires absolute intentionality on your part. You will not naturally celebrate others who get something that you wanted. You will not naturally go to leveraging your own gifts instead of feeling superior to others. And so our default setting is to go to those things. And none of us want jealousy and envy inside of us. You talk to anybody, if you talk to a jealous and envious person, they wouldn't say they want that, right? But it's just so hard. It is hard to do that. And so it requires, okay, this is a little bit of a daily death. This is a little bit, and then before long, it becomes a little bit more natural, like you said, Sandra. So I love that. And by the way, it's really for other parents listening, it's really hard to not play the superiority game too. If your child's feeling down and saying, well, you're better than such and such and such and such. Totally, right?

Allie Cooney (27:28):

I do that with my friends. I'm like, well, you're so great. You're better than everyone,

Sandra Stanley (27:33):

Right? It's hard.

Joey Odom (27:34):

Yeah.

Sandra Stanley (27:37):

It's so important what we're modeling for our daughters, and that's one of the things I talk about in the mom chapters in almost every category they're watching, whether they want you to know they're watching or not, whether they pretend like they're not watching, they are. And so what we're modeling really, really does matter in those. And again, our own, for lack of a better word, happiness or fulfillment or all of that gets so weighed down when jealousy and envy are the go-to rather than celebrating and leveraging,

Joey Odom (28:09):

And you're going to want to go to those default settings again and again. But for what I like about this book, and this was a little counterintuitive. I actually had to sit on this and think about it for a second when you talked, Sandra, about being open with these things open with you, talk later in the book, open with your fears open with the areas where you're struggling. But as I thought about it, it makes so much sense because how relatable is that for your daughter? Oh, goodness. Because the daughter, it's very easy to say like, oh mom, you're just good at that. And it's like, hold on a second.

Joey Odom (28:39):

I'm

Joey Odom (28:40):

Not naturally good at that, but I've had to set up the structures. I've had to be intentional and I'm in the battle with you. So that relatability I think is huge. I love how you've done that all throughout the book.

Sandra Stanley (28:50):

I think when our girls see us as humans and not just as just what you said, they are far more likely to come to us with the things that are hard, and we want them to come to us with the things that are hard. So it sets us up better for that.

Aro Customer - Courtney (29:09):

I think the app was a huge part of that, just tracking the time that you've spent away from your phone and then add in the competitive aspect, you can see how long other people in your family have had their phone in the box. I think that was huge for both of us. We're naturally pretty competitive trying to see who can get the most hours,

Aro Customer - Brent (29:27):

But when she sets her mind to something, she's like to the extreme, it's like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do

Aro Customer - Courtney (29:34):

This all or nothing.

Aro Customer - Brent (29:35):

So that made the competition a little bit more fun for me. Like, I'm going to beat her. I'm going to win. Yes, I'm going to win. Stop saying that I'm going to win. And sadly, I've only won maybe 10 times.

Joey Odom (29:51):

Wow.

Aro Customer - Brent (29:53):

You measure this on weeks at a given week. We like how you can categorize your time away, and then it shows, oh, here's what I've been able to do without my side.

Joey Odom (30:05):

We love hearing stories from the Aro community. The one you just heard actually comes from our voices of Aro episodes where I sit down with Aro members and they share about their stories and their lives with ro. Make sure to check out the voices of Aro episodes, and if you're a member who would like to share your own story with ro, please email us@storiesatgoro.com. You talk about, and family is Forever the chapter. This one took me a little off guard because it made me realize the way I probably undervalue the role of family in all of this. It's almost like you try to isolate the problems of comparison trap and all this other stuff, but the undergirding the next step beyond faith, which is the foundation, the undergirding is family and the importance of that. And I want to start, Allie, how did your dad, or how can dads, how can they be supportive? How can they come alongside you? It's a different relationship for mom, but for dads, for the dads listening here, what can they do that your dad did or that you've seen other good dads do to be supportive in these years as you're going through all this stuff?

Allie Cooney (31:19):

Yeah, I think something my dad is great at and kind of what every heart longs for is this idea of pursuit pursuing their daughter. Whether that's making sure that their daughter knows that they really like them. I think as daughters we're like, yeah, my parents love me because they're my parents. They have to. But there's something that was specifically in me, and it might just be my wiring and personality. I really wanted my dad to think that I was cool. I wanted still want not cool, but I like spending time with you. I think you're interesting. I'm interested in what you're saying and I think I'd like to hear more about that. I'd like to spend more time with you. I'd like to see, I think it an all encompassing in the word that I really came up with was they want to feel pursued, and they want to feel like not only did they love you, but they like you and they're interested in you and they want to hear more about what you're interested in.

(32:20):

And I do think you have to learn your daughter. You have to figure out what your kids value. But I know for me specifically, what would just put wind in my sails and even boost my confidence so much was when I would walk away from a conversation and I was, my dad is interested in me. He thinks I am interesting, and he thinks I'm smart and he thinks I'm cool. He doesn't just love me and do the blanket. Like, no, I love you so much. But it's like, oh, that pursuit aspect. I know that that really helped me feel confident and comfortable. And honestly, yeah, he believes in me. I can go out in this world and do what God's called me to do because my dad thinks that I'm cool. There's something in that that's just so powerful and I think wired into our human nature of we want our heavenly Father to love us, but also have a purpose for us and favor us and see good things in us. And so I think that that was really big for

Joey Odom (33:26):

Me. And what a great template for you to know what it feels like to pursue, to be pursued and know that you should be pursued. Exactly. You're valuable enough to be pursued. And so you have that innate value that says one day when you got in the dating scene before you get married, you're like, I know what it's like the right. How great is that? Totally. One point you made that I love was Learn your daughter. And I think that a lot of I'll submit to the group, and maybe this is just my own experience, it's not as difficult as you think. I think they are giving out little bids all the time that if we just listen to them or even just, girls are much better at this about putting things together, connecting things in their mind. But one example from this week, my birthday was earlier this week and my daughter made, and she's just the best. She's so creative. She made a PowerPoint for me and she went through all the things she loves about me, the things that she loves to do with me. I'll give you the list. One of them is go with her when she dog sits, listen to Taylor Swift. And the third one was to do her laundry for her,

Allie Cooney (34:33):

For her happy

Joey Odom (34:34):

Birthday.

Joey Odom (34:34):

Yeah, she's very crafty too. But at the end of it, I didn't put together until the next day, wait a second, she just gave me a

Allie Cooney (34:44):

Roadmap. Roadmap,

Joey Odom (34:46):

Do those three things and make a PowerPoint for her. She didn't say that, but it was obvious. She likes PowerPoint, so I'll just make her one someday. Right.

(34:53):

But we can pick up on these little cues and if we can become students of, and this doesn't just go for daughters, by the way, this goes for sons and this goes for spouses. So we can just be investigators all the time. So I love that you made that point, Sandra, for husbands, for the mom, for you, other than just pour you at a big thermos of wine, how can husbands come alongside their wives as their wives are being there for their daughters? Does that make sense? How has Andy supportive to you? How have you seen other husbands do this well, and just in supporting you as you go through the teenage years?

Sandra Stanley (35:28):

Yeah, that is such a good question and so packed full of opportunity. I would say just husband, same thing. Husbands be include in being students of the situation. And it's not as easy for them. They've never been a girl before, so it's just not as easy. They don't understand all the things that are going on inside of their daughters or even their, let

Allie Cooney (35:55):

Tell you the wild things he has said to me, thinking it was the right thing to say is,

Joey Odom (36:01):

Oh, having good company,

Sandra Stanley (36:03):

And I'm standing behind her doing the slit throat kind of thing, whatcha And he's like, I'm crushing this. He crushing I

Joey Odom (36:12):

That feeling.

Sandra Stanley (36:15):

So that does happen. So I would say, and this isn't exactly to your question, but I would say to moms, be willing to help your husband kind of figure this out with the daughter because your input is really valuable for helping steer how he communicates with her, how he can be sensitive when she is feeling emotional or here's what not to say to our daughter, just if you could just stay away from these three words, don't say that. So moms can be a little more clued in to help kind of coach the dad along. And I think more to your question though, about how dads can be supportive of moms as they're navigating. This is just being available, just being available to listen. And there are times that as a mom, you don't want to talk badly about your children to anybody, but if you do have the safe place of your husband to say, here is how he frustrated me today, or she frustrated me today and tell him, Hey, again, this isn't something I need you to solve. I need you to just be a sounding board for me so I can vent for just a minute my only safe person to say some negative things about our kids. You love 'em as much as I do.

Joey Odom (37:22):

Okay, I'd love that you said that. I was actually going to ask that is husbands will. Most of us will naturally go into problem solving.

Joey Odom (37:32):

Heres you should do,

Joey Odom (37:32):

Which may show up even as arguing against their feelings. So you know what I mean? Oh, Gianna. Gianna is, she's always such and such. Well, she's not always, you're speaking to hyperbole, just that goes down that road, right?

Sandra Stanley (37:47):

Yeah. I think that's that empathetic listening thing. And if you've never read much on empathetic listening, everybody needs to, I needed it again, you mentioned in the bio, I'm more analytical, I'm more formulaic. I love solving for X, all the things. And so for me, learning to listen empathetically was really important just to say, Hey, wow, I can see how when she said that to you, it made you feel that way. And I think if dads can just do that when their wives are having their venting safe moments, that's huge. Just saying, yeah. Ooh, I can see how that probably made you feel that way and just receive it and hug her and do whatever it is that she needs you to do to be the listener.

Joey Odom (38:35):

I do think we as men, we overcomplicate it. It's be a good listener, be supportive. It's learn those around you. The Sandra, will, you talk about the headbutts between mom and daughter and how that's, you talk about how it's the safest and most consistent relationship in a daughter's life, but that actually leads to tension then Allie, I'd love your take on that as well. Why does that happen when that's their person, but why does it become sometimes combustible?

Sandra Stanley (39:05):

Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to what Allie discovered six minutes into being a mom. There is nothing you want more than for your daughter not to have to experience pain and regret and hard things that are unnecessary. There are enough things in life that are going to be hard, that are completely outside of our control. So we want to protect our kids and help them learn to make decisions that will cause them to have as few regrets as possible. So I think sometimes we can be so focused on that as a mom, and it's not something that the daughter really wants to receive in that moment. And those headbutt things happen. And one of the things that I say to moms often is, again, be a student of your daughter and of your child, but also think very carefully about your approach to hard conversations.

(39:57):

Because with Allie, there were just certain times that I knew this is a good talking time with Allie. And then there were certain times that weren't. And I think moms often make the mistake of just wanting to fight to force a teachable moment when it is not a teachable moment time. And so I think that one is really, really huge. Think about your approach. What are the words that she receives? What are the words that trigger her and make her angry? Stay away from those words. There's a book that Andy and I did when we were foster parents. It was one of our continuing education events we had to do to keep our license for foster care. And we went through this material called I said This, you heard that. And it is a temperament study on the four temperaments. And it is an amazing parenting tool because once you figure out which of the four temperaments your child has, there are trigger words that are universal for that particular temperament. And there are life-giving words that are universal for that particular temperament. So that helped us so much with our foster daughter. We had already raised our kids at that point. It was too late for us, so it was too late. But there were certain words, Andy and I are both are the blue, kind of the very analytical, analytical temperament, which is very black and white, quadrant four on the four quadrants. It's the same as the disc. It's just a different way of doing all of that.

(41:25):

And so Andy and I are one way, and the Garrett, our middle son is very yellow, so he's very, what is the word for that one? Sanguine? I don't know. I think so. Colors are easier, the high on the disc. So we realized we were constantly going, Garrett, stop. Garrett, sit down, Garrett, be quiet. Garrett, why are you doing that, Garrett? We were trying to calm him down all the time. And he's just an expressive, a high energy buddy, high energy. Everything needs to be fine. So for him, a great word to use is fun. And all the things that have to do with, we're going to make this a good time. Wouldn't it be fun if you calmed down? Wouldn't be fun if we had a few minutes of quiet. But there to all that to say approach is everything, especially when we're in those headbutt moments. So think about your approach.

Joey Odom (42:17):

If you, Trey, he must think that you'll, in retrospect, my parents think the weirdest things are fun. Used be my parents. They think even broccoli is the most fun thing. I don't get it. My gosh, look how green it's, it's so beautiful.

Sandra Stanley (42:30):

It looks like you have a time. You want to eat a tree. He's fun. We apologized to him so much in the last, I don't know, five or six years. Finally one day he said, look, y'all can stop. I mean, he's a full grown adult dad now he has a child. He said, he said, y'all can stop apologizing. I'm fine. I have met some high yellow individuals and they get on my nerves. So if you tempered me a little thank you, we can be done with apologizing.

Joey Odom (42:56):

Oh my gosh. Allie, will you talk about that combustibility as well? What is that from a daughter perspective where you do you feel so triggered by mom and in one way, maybe in a good way, you feel the comfort level to be able to fully blow up and let her see all of you, so that maybe that's not altogether a bad thing. Will you talk about those combustible moments and why the headbutts happen?

Allie Cooney (43:22):

Yeah. I think there is a level of safety of, so you're a girl and you go to school and you're kind of on all day and trying to get people to like you and hoping that you make the grade and hoping you make a good impression. And then you come home and you're so exhausted. And here's the one person that no matter how you act or what you do is going to be there tomorrow and still love you. That's right. And so I know for me in our big moments, it was coming off of I'm exhausted and I've got nothing left to give, which should I be that way? No, but I come home, I'm exhausted. Here's my mom. I do not have to pretend for my mom. I do not have to strive to get her to like me. I do not have to be perfect for her to love me. So I think those are the moments where it's like I, how dare you make me this meal once you folded my laundry? Weird. I can't believe you. You're the worst. They don't make, but there's something that there's just a safety and someone coming home from not feeling safe all day long. You just take off your armor and you are volatile and it's not fair and it's not good. But I think that I have so much grace for daughters because it's like you're not a horrible person. You are not a bad person. You are actually so delightful to everyone except for your mom.

(45:02):

And that's not fair, but that is kind of the way that it is. And hormones and exhaustion and pressure and stress and mental health and anxiety and staring at a screen all day. There's so much that builds into it. Also, my mom is a genius. When I'm hungry, I'm mean to my mom. Not anymore. Well, hopefully not. But when she was still driving me and she would pick me up from school, there would always be cheese crackers and grapes. And I'm like, you're a genius. You don't want me to be mean to you. You just want me to eat. Goes back

Sandra Stanley (45:40):

To being a student of your child. Yeah, it really does.

Joey Odom (45:45):

I'm curious, and by the way, Allie, you did a noise there that I've heard maybe 30,000 times in my house. You go, I've heard that one from my sweet wonderful daughter who I love called my heart.

Allie Cooney (45:57):

He was so delightful to every person except for you guys said sometimes.

Joey Odom (46:01):

Yeah, exactly. So Sandra, when you heard the and when heard, how dare you make my favorite meal on a Tuesday. I like it on Thursday. An example there at your very best.

Sandra Stanley (46:14):

At my best.

Joey Odom (46:15):

What was your reaction to that? At your very, very best? How do you respond to that moment?

Sandra Stanley (46:20):

I think at my very best, the response to that moment is with Allie would've been just a little side hug and okay, you just let me know when you want something and just give her some space. I feel like that was probably what she needed, my hug and a little bit of space to get through the day.

Joey Odom (46:40):

Yeah, you're not going to

Sandra Stanley (46:41):

Way instead of me going, oh my gosh, you love a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, what's your problem?

Allie Cooney (46:47):

And I'll say too, as the girl in that situation, I think especially someone who once again really wants people to like them, I think I would experience a lot of shame if I wasn't responded to that way because we're not dumb, we're not so unaware of how we're acting because that's not how we typically act. And so I think sometimes when the response was more like, this isn't my fault, then I would be like, I'm horrible. It would just create a lot of shame of why can't I just be nice to my mom? There's an awareness there. I mean, once again, these girls are not dumb. We know what's happening. And so I think always when I was met with, okay, well do whatever, you're good, then I was able to be not go into a shame spiral of why am I sway? It's easy to do that

Joey Odom (47:50):

And it feels like a message. The implied message there is saying, you're not going to scare me away when you let me see the real you. That doesn't scare me. In fact, I love you in that. What an amazing moment to be able to preempt that shame or come to that shame and just be like, no, I can be who I am. And it's not scary to mom.

Sandra Stanley (48:11):

Well, and again, we're modeling for our daughter, we're modeling. So in that moment, I'm modeling an immediate forgiveness, a letting go of a hurt. And the three things we talk about are three of the things we talk about in that family is forever chapter is appreciating family, forgiving family and being gentle with family. And so we talk about those three things as it relates to sibling relationships, parent relationships, and just within that family kind of network of relationships. And so that's one of 'em, and that's an opportunity for mom to model one of the gentleness and the forgiveness that we want our daughters to pick up and be able to then reciprocate to her brother or her sister or whoever.

Joey Odom (48:56):

I don't think I really understood. I think maybe at the very bottom of the fruits of the spirit growing up was gentleness. I just didn't really understand it. And as you become a parent, you begin to understand that. And as you're a spouse, you begin to understand that real value of gentleness. And I love that you all highlighted that. We just have a few minutes. You've been very generous, but Allie, I want you to, and I really kind want to tease it out, I don't want to go into a lot of depth here because I think this section is worth the price of the book is your rules for high school.

Allie Cooney (49:26):

Yeah,

Joey Odom (49:27):

Man, that's brilliant. Will you give us a little teaser on it just so everybody needs to go by the book, but will you give us a teaser on what those are, how you had the insight to write them? Wendy, did you write those in the moment? Did you write them in retrospect? Wow, they're good.

Allie Cooney (49:43):

Thank you. So good. It's so funny. I wrote them when I had just graduated high school. It was a very, I mean just as you see them on the page is how I wrote them as a 17, 18-year-old, which would I go back and change if I knew this was going to be in a book and on the internet probably would've said things a little bit differently. But I'm like, it was for a very specific group of girls going into ninth grade specific context, which the Lord used it. I had some later conversations with friends and ex-boyfriends who were like, what the heck? And I was like, sorry, I didn't know you were going to see it. My bad. But yeah, I had a group of middle school girls who were about to go into high school and I was about to go off to college and I was like, wait, there's so many things that either I've said to you a bunch and I want to put it in writing or things that I learned through my own personal experience or things that I watch a friend that I don't want you guys to have to experience.

(50:45):

And so I just wrote a list of, I call them rules and gave them to these girls. And a lot of 'em have to do with friendship and boys. A lot of 'em have to do with faith. But yeah, I wrote them and they got sent out

Sandra Stanley (51:02):

Into the world. So here is a little backstory though. I'll make it quick, Allie, I came home from school. Okay, so I'm super tidy. Allie, is she just probably

Allie Cooney (51:13):

94% of all of our tension in my whole life was the way my

Sandra Stanley (51:20):

Room was. That's right. That was really hard for me. So I'm walking, I had been up in her room earlier in the day and it had been messy. So she was home from school. She was kind of up in her room doing her thing, and I'm going up there kind of ready to have the, Hey, it's time to get this room cleaned up conversation. So around the corner, and she's sitting on the floor in the middle of a nice little cluster of things that don't belong on the floor. So she's on the floor. I thought they did. And she's just furiously writing something. And I stopped and I'm watching her for a minute and knowing that she's about to go off to college. So I'm feeling like, oh my goodness, I'm going to miss her so much and I'm going to miss the mess. All the things I don't think she swirl of emotions.

(52:02):

And I said, Allie, what are you writing? She goes, mom, come here. So I sit down and she said, I'm writing Allie's rules for high school for my ninth grade girls. So she starts reading them to me, and I mean, I am all of a sudden it's like there's no mess in the room. I've got tears. I just am so grateful. And it was a light bulb moment for me to realize there are very important things. And then there are medium important things and there are things that aren't important at all. I would argue a clean room is medium. Some people would say not at all. I would argue medium. But what she was doing was so amazingly important. And so I was blogging at the time, had a little blog going on, so I took 'em. I asked for permission. I said, can I write a blog post about your allie's rules for high school? I'm like, oh, cute. So I posted it. Your five followers see this. That's right. Well, my five followers, and it just went viral. And the next morning on the way on drive time, it was on one of Atlanta's biggest radio stations. They were reading 'em one at a time. I used as people were going back to the day of school.

Joey Odom (53:10):

Was that the B show Show? Was it real? Oh my. Yeah. That's huge.

Sandra Stanley (53:16):

So Burt was reading, and of course the other people that are sitting in the studio, they're talking about each one of them. And it was just amazing. So it was this whole huge viral thing of alley schools for high school, and it ended up people printing 'em out, laminating 'em, framing. We got so many messages of people who had it on their daughter's bathroom mirror or framed it for their girls or whatever, have it all over their house. So it was just kind

Allie Cooney (53:42):

Of a whole funny thing. Not me, I didn't know, but it's like these lessons that I've learned in high school, 20 things, wasn't it? 20 things? I don't

Sandra Stanley (53:52):

Know. It was 20 or 25 things, but it was So 'em got some phone calls. We've had 'em all in the book.

Joey Odom (53:59):

I'm sure you did.

Sandra Stanley (54:00):

Yeah.

Joey Odom (54:01):

Well, I want to close with a question for both of you, and it's the same question and it's four. But from each of your perspectives is that you wrote this book with the benefit of retrospect, with the benefit of being able to look back and see and soak in all the wisdom and the lessons and understand, see a little bit more of a clear picture. But there are people listening right now, daughters and moms, both who are in the middle of it, who are in the thick of it. What would you say to Allie, to teenage girls, standard to moms? What would you say to them right now as they're may be feeling like they're in absolute survival mode? What's the one piece of advice that you would like for them to hear right now?

Allie Cooney (54:44):

I would say just the reminder that you're not alone. That was really a heart behind this book of not only are you not alone because you have your heavenly Father who loves you, you don't have to do this alone, but we wanted our girls to realize that they have their mom and their mom loves them so much that they want to walk through this season of life with them. And you can either ice her out or you can invite her in, and I think inviting her in will just create, set your future up. Well set your heart up well set your relationship with God up well. So I think the reminder that you're not in this season alone,

Sandra Stanley (55:30):

I think what I would want to say to moms Joey is that you are in a relationship with someone who has the potential to be your best friend for the rest of your life, and you are not always going to get it right. There are going to be regrets that you have along the way and God's grace and mercy, I believe, covers all of that. You hang in there with your daughter, be a student of her, think about your approach, all those things we've talked about. But at the end of the day, give yourself some grace. You're not going to always get it right. You're going to mess it up, be willing to apologize, but this is a relationship that will go the long haul with you and it will be one of the most important relationships of your life. So it's so worth investing and doing the hard work

Joey Odom (56:19):

Listener. You know exactly what to do. Please do go get a copy of this, and I would encourage people listening, don't just get a copy for you. You may not be in this season if you are, you absolutely need it. Husbands, don't be an idiot. Go ahead and buy it for your wife and your daughter. But for those of you who know somebody who's in this season, go ahead and order it and give it as a gift. What an investment you're making in their lives. So I want to encourage people to get that. The book as this episode airs, this book came out on August 27th and it's going to be so enriching for your life. I know it is for my family as well. We're going to put in the show notes, all the social handles and everything like that, but go get Meet me in the middle anywhere you buy books. Everybody needs this book. Sandra, Allie, thank you for this book. Thank you for your time. This was a ton of fun and really, really enriching and I got a little work to do.

Allie Cooney (57:12):

Well, thank you for having, thank you for having us. Such a fun conversation.

Joey Odom (57:15):

Thank you. Okay. You may want to listen to that one twice, and you may want to share that one 20 times because if you're in this stage like I am, or if you know somebody in this stage, they got to hear it. That was fantastic. I'm so grateful for Sandra and Allie. Please go get a copy of this book. You are going to love it. I will personally reimburse you if it doesn't hit you right between the eyes. If it's not the perfect book for where you are right now with your daughter, if you're in this stage, buy it for a friend. I said that at the end of the episode. Go pick up a copy for somebody else who's in this stage. They're going to benefit from it. They're going to thank you for it. And who knows, they kids may. Thank you for it someday because the impact it could have on them. Thank you for joining us this week. Thank you to Sandra and Allie. Hope you re-listened to this. I hope you share this, and I hope you come see us again next week on next week's episode of the Aro podcast. The Aro podcast is produced and edited by the team at Palm Tree Podcast. Special thanks to Emily Miles and Caitlyn's for media and digital support and to executive producers, Anthony Palmer of Palm Tree Poco, and the Prince of the Low Country Tides himself. Rich Donnellan of Aro.

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